The Barbie Liberation Organization is an amorphous group of activists and media intervention superstars, whose most famous action involved switching the voice boxes in 300 Talking Barbie dolls and Talking G.I. Joe dolls during the Christmas season of 1989. The goal of the action was to reveal and correct the problem of gender-based stereotyping in children's toys. The "corrected" G.I. Joe doll said things like "I love school. Don't you?" and "Let's sing with the band tonight." The "liberated" Barbie said, and I particularly like this one, "Dead men tell no lies." The mainstream media, after some prodding, latched on and a legend was born which continues to be retold, recreated and augmented to this day. (You've all heard of Hacker Barbie, right?) Melinda, Igor and I talked about boy games, media and intervention, one-liners, fear, and some lessons and tactics they've learned that can be of help to other activists.

VE: With this first issue of Brillo, what we're tackling is the cultural paradigms that exclude white women and people of color from the tools of cultural production: especially the media and especially new technology.

BLO: Amen!

VE: Yeah - about time...and we' re taking a really broad view of that. From things as complex as how women' s bodies fit into coming technology to things as simple and straight forward as, to use one of your examples, the "Math is Hard Barbie." We' re also hoping to supply some kind of real, solid tools and strategies for challenging and changing these kinds of paradigms. Now, since you folks are old hands at challenging cultural myths and at actual intervention, we thought you would fit in really well for our first issue. Do you see some of the issues that you were attacking with the early BLO cropping up around newer technologies like the internet and the World Wide Web?

BLO: Yes and no. I feel like right now there' s a real fetishization of new technologies, but I don' t know about the kind of access people really have to them. There' s the idea that this is a space that is a democracy and everybody comes here onto an equal playing field...I don' t really see it. I see the same kind of boy games going on. I' m an outsider here. I still make films and stay with that technology because it' s not as intimidating. I don' t know C or anything, and I feel like these are the things that exclude. You know, people start talking this language, and all the sudden, I missed out on the first issue of Wired, so I' m screwed.

VE: I think its not so much the programming, or the actual technology for a lot of women, that its not the actual tools that women are uncomfortable with, but its the concept of it being so codified. BLO: That' s exactly what it is. VE: The boys have the code, and that' s the way it plays.

The boys have the code, and that's the way it plays.

BLO: And it' s updated every month! To the extent that if you don' t buy all these magazines and you don' t keep up, you really are subjugated to another realm. You' re not a player. Because my livelihood doesn' t depend on it, I don' t have time to keep up with all that, therefore I' m dependent on somebody else. And that' s where the frustration comes in. So I rely on older forms of distribution. We continue to go down to Kinko' s late at night and send it off the our friends! Color Xeroxing is beautiful!

VE: How do you think the internet and the WWW can be used by people concerned with the media and intervention, like yourself?

BLO: I feel like it works as a networking tool, and to throw out ideas to an activist community. Like, here' s this idea we' re playing with - do you know anyone else who' s doing this? It' s very exciting to have live bodies from all over the world responding and giving addresses and phone numbers to other live bodies that share similar interests, as opposed to getting all your information from the stacks at the library. But I think there are limitations. I think its good for "one-liners," because people get so overwhelmed by the amount of JUNK out there. And there are other limitations. For example, I think the BLO missed out on a lot because we didn' t have enough people to handle distribution. So in the middle of this distribution crisis, Igor decided, "What a great idea - I' ll put something out on the internet and post it on a few of these boards like communications and technology feminist theory and media criticism." Somehow, it got back to the University of California and basically, the $%*# hit the fan. They told Igor, in no uncertain terms, you will never be able to advertise on the internet again. And it wasn' t an advertisement. It was, "Look, if you' re interested in what we' re doing, you can call."

VE: And there' s so much that goes on in the "college nodes" of the World Wide Web, that brings up some interesting questions about what' s going to get censored, and by whom.

BLO: And I wonder how much longer it' s going to be free. I mean, they don' t let us park for free, I very much doubt they' re going to continue to let us use this resource for free.

VE: We talked briefly about the reasons why you don' t use the internet that much, and it sounds like it' s pretty much a time issue for you. But even with people like myself, people with jobs in the "industry," I find a lot of the time that women get pigeonholed into jobs that are considered "soft technology," like on-line marketing and web page development. Because they' re not considered "hard technology" jobs. And men in the industry are expected to learn the hard technology, so they are given the time to do so. So that issue of not having time to keep up is something that happens to women all across the spectrum. How do you think we can attack that paradigm? That concept that women just won' t be able to handle anything too technical?

BLO: (laughter) Oh, if I had the answer to that...Umm, that' s a really interesting question. All these things go through my mind...like what if we didn' t think in those terms? But at this point, advocacy groups don' t seem to work ...you end up in this victim status...

VE: Well, that' s one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you folks - because you seem much more intervention oriented. So, say you had tons of time, the BLO was looking for a project, and you decided you were going to do something about the gender and racial imbalances on the WWW. What do you think might come out of a brainstorming session on that?

BLO: God. Um...now I' m brainstorming...what would happen? I don' t know if you' ve heard about this one, but it fascinated me and it made me think, "Wow. There are interesting things you could do." This guy put a Dole campaign website up, and if you went to visit it, interested in how Dole' s campaign was going, you would actually find out how many bananas, how many pineapples and how many Dole products Bob Dole had eaten each day. Very cutesy and fruit oriented metaphors. And I thought, that' s really clever. And a lot of people had visited this site, there' s a lot of people who are interested in these campaign sites, and the guy was saying, "I' m telling no more lies than the lies you' re fed when you log on to the Bob Dole site." Again, that' s a one-liner. You have to think on that level.

VE: It' s a very low attention-span medium.

BLO: Exactly. So you' d have to come up with a one-liner about gender inequity. Something like Frederick' s of Hollywood...

VE: Or "Babes on the Net?" BLO: Yeah. Like "Come visit Frederick' s of Hollywood and check out our new brassieres." And you could click on the bras to make them come off, and then there' d be GUNS or something! Because there is that sexy sort of appeal of the Internet. You' re all alone in your house, nobody' s supposed to be watching you, and you can do anything you want. And it' s mostly men surfing the Înet, so how is it that you can entice them in this way? And then, get them with this surprise tactic...

You could click on the bras to make them come off, and then there'd be GUNS or something!

VE: You mentioned this new technology being "sexy." I think that it has been very highly sexualized, and that' s one of the problems that women are going to have coming to terms with the technology. Even when women do have access, when they get passed being pigeonholed into jobs that aren' t highly technical, or past not having the time, or past not having the resources, which is a whole other level of class imbalance and racial imbalance, just not having the tools, once you get past all of that, the atmosphere on the Web and on the interactive parts of the internet is most often straight up misogynistic! So it' s not, again, that women are intimidated by the tools, but that once they get there, they just find the spaces so offensive that they don' t want to deal with it.

BLO: Exactly. Here' s this thing that' s in the privacy of your own home and you' re supposed to be able to enjoy it, but you log on and you' re put in a position of reprimanding people and feeling like you are the police. Is that relaxation?? You don' t necessarily want to create all-woman chat groups, but again, we' re put in the exact same gendered spaces that we have in our everyday lives. So, it' s very frustrating.

VE: Speaking of policing...we talked briefly last time about the Telecommunication Act and how that besides the seven deadlies, the only topic of conversation that was actively excluded was abortion. Now, they' ve (oh, so magnanimously) said, "Oh. We guess that' s not Constitutional," about that, but it' s still on the books. What do you think that this kind of effort to censor any kind or real talk of issues, especially of women' s issues, means for the future of this medium?

Freedom of speech is on the books, too. But that doesn't mean much anymore.

BLO: I think it' s another strategy of fear. Even if it' s not officially on the books, it might keep you from talking about these issues. For me, it' s that simple. Already there' s things that, as a teacher on the University campuses, there' s certain things that just aren' t talked about, and I think that' s because there' s such an element of fear. These things are taboo. Therefore, we do not talk about them. And this is one of those things. The terrain is definitely shifting. Yeah, freedom of speech is on the books, too. But that doesn' t mean much anymore. I think people are afraid. Nobody' s stopping us yet, but we' re stopping ourselves. It' s got to be fear. Someone instills this fear in us, and then we police ourselves.

VE: What other lessons and tactics have you learned in your experience with media intervention that you think can be applied to the new technology?

BLO: You have to really have control over your message at all times. And the way you do that is by playing out every possible scenario and answering those scenarios before those questions come back to you later on. Represent yourself in ways that are beneficial to your story. You' re not actually lying, but you don' t necessarily tell the whole story. Acknowledge your multiple positions in society and utilize those when its best suited to the fight that you' re involved in. Don' t be tied to one position, because that position could be the thing that topples you in the end. Also, really have control over your message. It' s a pre-packaged society that we live in, that' s what the nightly news is day after day after day. I think that' s how the BLO made it as far as it did. It had these video press releases that kicked ass, with a very succinct story that was easy to follow, but there was this deeper message there as well. Document everything, from the beginning. What if this is a project that will help a lot of people in the end? You need to be able to give them that knowledge, and that knowledge starts from a point in time not just half-way through. It' s important to know all the stuff along the way.

VE: Where can people contact you, and how can they help you?

BLO: Well, the Barbie Liberation Organization has a permanent address now. 3841 4th Ave., #207, San Diego, CA 92103. How to help is circulate ideas! If someone would like to take over the surgeries, that' d be great. But in general, just keep circulating ideas and coming up with your own projects. Unless you' re a millionaire, and then we know exactly what you can do.

If you're in the San Francisco Bay area, check out the Barbie Liberation Organization's short "Operation Newspeak" at the Roxie June 3rd and 4th. (That's 1996 - so you probably missed the show!)